Thanks, Rimsen. It is a lot of shuffling, a map might be helpful?
The idea behind Slippery Minded was the other talent I was creating - it was called Waking Dreams, and basically it let you know when something you were perceiving wasn’t real (i.e. we’re “dreams”) and possibly shake it off. But… I realized it was getting to complicated and that Slippery Minded already existed and did the same thing - alert you to an altered mental state and shake it off. Hence why it’s there.
The only reason Dedication needs to be on the 5th row for most specializations is so that it costs a minimum of 75-100 xp to get it. But here, it still costs 100 xp, and it doesn’t get you anywhere towards the other major talents in the tree (especially if I remove the connection to the Force-related branch again). Can’t you let me have my silly fun, Rimsen ?
I’m curious what talents you think are too powerful. Powerful Ally lets you use a basic power you don’t have at the cost of a DP… which are all underwhelming. You can use it for a control upgrade you don’t already have… but then you can’t spend that DP to access the other color pips should you need them. Versatile, but not strong. Commune is outshined by a 25-credit comlink, which has the same if not better range, no check or xp expenditure, and doesn’t require everyone be asleep. Flows through All Things is decent, but requires a maneuver and a lot of Force rating to be comparable to something like Contingency Plan. The only “strong” talents are really Slippery Minded and One with the Universe, as far as I see… but maybe I’m missing something! It happens .
Does this exist in SW (Canon or EU) somewhere, or is this a brand new concept you’re introducing?
(I’m doing a Dream-heavy SW campaign myself atm – situated in the Kathol Sector where dreaming “gods” are believed to haunt the cultures, and where, according to KOTOR/SWTOR, the ancient Sith Empire conducted some dream/nigthmare experiments – so I’m interested in any SW dream lore stuff )
Hm… you introduce a Setback removal talent for dream interpretation, visioning, and filling in blanks when investigating. You should probably build some mechanics around dream interpretation and visioning also for the Hidden Signs to have any relevance?
Ooh, sounds fun! I don’t think it exists in Star Wars anywhere, I’m mostly just making it up based on themes I like . It might be in Star Wars somewhere, but I don’t actually care whether it is or not. The main place this will be used is for an extensive, heavily-modified AU where what the Force can do is still highly unknown, so dreaming is an open question!
If you decide you want to use this tree for your campaign, feel free, and let me know how it goes!
So, technically it already exists? In theory, you should be able to make a skill check with a relevant skill to do these things. However, in practice, for things like interpreting dreams and clues, most GMs will require the players to do it entirely out-of-character.
I’ve never fully liked this approach; we’re playing characters who are exceptionally more intelligent, clever, and determined than us players, we should be able to use the character’s mental faculties instead of having to rely on our own. But on the other hand, mysteries are more fun if you solve them yourself instead of having the GM point out the connections.
So Hidden Signs is intended to offer options for both play styles. If you want to roll checks, you get the Setback removal. If you want to rely on just puzzling it out yourself, you can get extra details if you have relevant Force powers, giving you more pieces to work with.
That’s the intent, at least. According to Rimsen, it didn’t work very well, so I may have to change it. I don’t want to go with Galaxy Mapper because that makes very little sense, but I may have to change to a different talent or change how Hidden Signs works.
I support keeping Hidden Signs.
I think you should key True Dreamer off of Lore, and Commune with Dreamers off of Discipline, leaving One with the Universe as Astrogation.
Then maybe add Intuitive Navigation somewhere.
Adding that one connection point an improvement, but not enough of one in my opinion.
I’m working on multiple projects right now, so I don’t have as much for giving feedback on this as I would like, but I’ll offer what advice I can.
As for changing the skills for Commune and Dreamer… do you have a reason other than not liking the theme of Astrogation? So many Force-related things already key off of Discipline and Lore already, and the point is to loop another skill that honestly gets very little use into the mystical family. Plus, the idea of both of those talents is about searching the dreamscape and finding what you’re looking for - you search for the other dreamers you’re communing with, and you search for the vision you need to help understand your current dilemma.
If you have a reason why I should change the skills, I’ll definitely consider it! But if the reason is just “these are the skills you normally use for Force-stuff,” then that’s the exact reason I’m not using them. They’re overplayed .
My main problem is that Astrogation is being divvied up in a weird way, so that it does two radically different things. One with the Universe walks that line well, but I don’t think it should be extended to the others.
Part of the reason for adding in Lore and Discipline is that they are given as career skills with the universal tree, but there’s nothing in the tree that actually relates to them, where there is for Astrogation and Vigilance. Astrogation in particular gets 3 talents. If you split it up, it urges the player to diversify and gives you a nice even spread of one active Discipline talent, one active Lore talent, and one active Astrogation talent.
Why specifically Discipline for Commune with Dreamers? You’ve got to be able to “lock on” to their signatures and push through the haze and distractions to make that connection. It’s more than just navigating, or opening yourself to the cosmos, you’ve got to walk the straight and narrow or you can be swept off the path and awaken without what you slept to find.
Why specifically Lore for True Dreamer? That one is a little bit more sketchy because it includes the future, but I’d call it knowing “when” to look for something. If you know history well, you’ll be more capable of predicting the future, so either you look into the past to find the future or you prognosticate an epoch in the future during which to search.
Those are great points! I’ll consider it. The reason I’m hesitant is that this is one specialization, and most other Force specializations use Discipline and Lore, so there’s lots of talents and powers you can use Discipline for. But Astro really does… nothing. Discipline can help with fear checks, recovering strain after encounters, and powers like Move, Influence, and Protect/Unleash. It gets its use in there. Lore is the catch-all “learn Force stuff” skill, and is probably the main skill you’ll be using to interpret all these visions you’re having, if your GM allows rolls (although I also like Vigilance for interpretation).
Both those skills will get used for things even without talents keyed to them. But Astro… be honest, when was the last time you bought ranks in Astrogation? I think a lot of GMs skip Astro checks altogether, or you get an AI Droid brain for your ship to do it for you. The one thing the skill does is one of the most hand-waved things in the system.
But, despite my protestations, you still make a good point. I’ll consider changing them, or at least one of them.
Well that isn’t how it’s intended to work. I require Astrogation checks for navigation like the RAW does, particularly because cutting down on travel times reduces fuel consumption (and saves money). Astrogation is also used for things like estimating where a pursued ship is going, jumping to hyperspace while under duress (*very important*), recalling information regarding the layout of the galaxy, etc.
I’ve not forgotten you, just bit busy for the time being, will explain myself a bit more detail later :)
The main reasons I wanted to change Hidden Signs to Galaxy Mapper (even though the name doesn’t make sense for this use as the system is not built for that, but it shouldn’t be a problem):
1, it’s already a dedicated talent to remove setback from Astrogation which that part of the tree heavily relies on
2, This kind of seback removal ranked talents are usually for 1 or 2 skills, only the more restricted or less used have additional powers to compensate (the one for purchasing black market stuff and maybe the Expert Tracker). Comparing to those, your talent removes setback from a variety of skill checks, because it’s not limited. I could imagine Perception, (your version of) Astrogation, Discipline and many more for interpreting dreams / putting together clues.
On top of that it also boosts the related Force checks, essentially doubles their effectiveness (1 pip for 1 more detail? Here’s one more!)
It does the same and more as the comparable talents, more flexible and has a neat secondary use.
That’s one of the talents I feel overpowered in the tree
Maybe if you separate the 2 abilities? Instead of Well Rounded you could add another custom talent for the second part on the Force branch. I have similar reasons as @P-47Thunderbolt mentioned already about the career skills, that the tree is very specific even if you distribute the skills across the “dreamwalker” talents (which tbh I like as Astrogation) and I don’t feel the need for more career skills in this spec either.
Only thing I’d change about Hidden Signs is removing the third effect.
So “remove Setback” and “take half time,” but drop “additional detail.”
I think it makes sense to have the talent apply to a specific sort of check rather than blanket to a certain skill.
Based on Rimsen’s comments, I was thinking of dropping it from “+1/rank per activation” to a flat “+1/rank.” That way, for maxed-out Foresee, it’s basically 1 free pip spent on Strength if you have both ranks, and for Seek its effectively +1/2 pip into Magnitude, at maximum.
I don’t want to get rid of the effect entirely, because of the issue I mentioned above that not all GMs allow tools for interpretation and want players to do the working-out themselves, so that option is there for them to get something from it. But you’ve convinced me the original version was too potent! Does that seem better?
I’m making the same argument that I made before, but how often does the “takes 1/2 time” effect of these talents come into play ? I could remove that part too, if you’d like, but it’s also something that doesn’t affect much, I feel?
Yes, but ranked talents typically have a benefit like “remove Setback” then a single, minor effect, like “halve time” or “insert extra effect.”
I think it would be best to split one of the effects off into it’s own talent, like “Technical Aptitude.”
If you come up with mechanics for dreaming similar to crafting, that’ll really come in handy as it reduces the amount of time they have to dedicate.
Can I make a comparison? Secret Lore. It’s a ranked talent with 2 ranks. It gives Setback removal, and lowers the difficulty of ALL lore checks by one. That is very strong and gives a broad scope, considering Lore is basically the “know everything about the Force” skill.
Yes, it’s technically only two effects. But is a narrower field of applicable checks, half time, and +1 pip at most to very specific uses of specific Force powers the same strength as Secret Lore? Secret Lore is probably better for interpreting dreams, as Lore is probably the skill you’d use, anyway, so you’re getting the same Setback removal and a decreased difficulty. Plus it does all other Lore-based research, too.
If you think so, then I’ll chop out the half time effect.
EDIT: Please don’t think I’m rejecting your advice, I really appreciate the thoughts! I just want to make sure we’re not rejecting something that’s functional just because it’s non-standard. I bet that if someone home-brewed Secret Lore, everyone here would say it was bonkers broken, and we should be wary of a “reduce difficulty” effect because we’ve never seen it before.
Yup, I get it. But Secret Lore actually isn’t that unusual. It falls into the same category of “Primary effect [ranked]/secondary effect [ranked?]” as many talents, and the difficulty decrease is not unprecedented (Codebreaker comes to mind).
Actually, I don’t think I’d use Lore for interpreting dreams. At least not as the default.
I’d change up the skill depending on the content, context, and intent of the dream. It’d likely usually be Perception, Vigilance, or a Knowledge skill, but Astrogation if it was a vision of a planet or star cluster, Mechanics if it was a vision of complex machinery, Discipline if trying to parse confusing signs and signals, Cool if the visions were frightening, etc.
Then if Lore comes up, the person who’s particularly good at Knowledge (Lore) gets to use their added bonuses.
I’d recommend chopping out the time effect, possibly making it a separate talent similar to Technical Aptitude, but that would depend on what mechanics you use for dreaming.
Okay, I’ve changed it! And once again, you’re showing my how poor my creativity is, because this check options for interpreting dreams and visions are very good .
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