Dreamwalker - Masters of Visions

Absol197 · February 3, 2021, 10:02pm

Hey all! I have a new universal specialization in progress to share, the Dreamwalker! Let me know your thoughts. I’m worried that the new unique talents are a bit too weak, but that may be just because they’re mostly narrative abilities. Dreamwalkers are intended to be good at gathering knowledge, so I suppose that depends on what all that knowledge can help with?

I dunno, give me your thoughts!

Full description of the new talents:

Commune with Dreamers (Active): While sleeping, the character may attempt a Hard Astrogation check, adding Force dice no greater than their Force rating to the check. If successful, they may spend [O] to share the dream with a number of willing, characters up to their Presence rating within Planetary (Close) range. They may spend Advantage to control one aspect of the dream, spend [O] to affect more willing subjects, and spend [OO] to increase the range by one range band. At the GM’s discretion, other characters with a Force rating with which the user is familiar can be added to the dream with no range restrictions.

Hidden Signs (Passive): Remove 1 Setback per rank of Hidden Signs from checks made to interpret dreams, visions, or put together clues from incomplete information. Additionally, when you activate one or more Force power upgrades that provides details for a vision, increase the total details gained by 1 per rank of Hidden Signs.

Lucid Dreaming (Passive): The character gains Force rating 1 if they did not already have Force rating 1. Additionally, the character can continue to take purely mental actions, such as making checks or using Force powers that affect themselves while sleeping or meditating.

Mind Palace (Active - Incidental/Maneuver): Once per session as an incidental, the character may create a perfect memory of the events of the current encounter. Afterward, once per encounter as a maneuver, the character may attempt an Average Vigilance check to recall any details of a remembered encounter. Doing so may add Boost dice to checks related to the remembered events, or make additional checks to analyze the events of the encounter, as determined by the GM.

Mind Palace, Improved (Passive): The character no longer needs to make a check to recall events remembered using Mind Palace. Additionally, the character may spend 1 Destiny Point while recalling events with Mind Palace to add 1 Triumph to a single check related to the recalled events.

True Dreamer (Active): Once per session, the character may attempt a Daunting Astrogation check while sleeping or meditating. If successful, they receive a perfect vision of a past or future event that is significant towards solving their current situation or dilemma.

Craftidore · February 3, 2021, 10:40pm

That has a very specific path that the character must follow, even more than the slicer tree. I’d like to hear your reasons for baking it that way.

Absol197 · February 3, 2021, 10:54pm

Do you want the official reason, or the actual reason?

The official reason is to give it two different paths, one for regular mental acumen, the other for Force-based abilities.

The actual reason is because I like non-standard tree layouts and spirals . Dedication and Powerful Ally used to connect across, but I thought it made more sense to keep the non-Force and Force sections separate.

EDIT: Also, I realized that Powerful Ally isn’t specifically an improved version of The Force is my Ally, so I can remove tFiMA for something else. I want Powerful Ally in there, as the characters “dream up” new powers, but tFiMA is a bit much for a Universal spec.

Maybe another unique talent? We’ll see…

P-47Thunderbolt · February 4, 2021, 12:02am

Some general thoughts:
Concept looks interesting, but I think it has too many custom talents.

More specific thoughts:
The layout is terrible. You may like the non-standard layouts, but they’re really not good. They restrict character progression and make some things way too expensive, as well as being a pain to navigate. In some rare circumstances, it can be necessary/good, but only in rare circumstances and I don’t think this qualifies.
Mind Palace could probably be shifted down to one talent.
Why does True Dreamer use Astrogation?
“Strong in the Force” is just “Force Rating.”

I may give more thoughts on talent specifics later, as I haven’t read them in-depth, but those’re my first thoughts.

Absol197 · February 4, 2021, 12:47am

Part of the point of the non-standard layout it to make some things much more expensive to allow for them in a Universal specialization, but I acknowledge your concerns. I’ll think on how to change it around to be a bit more open. I will note, however, that’s its basically the same a Juyo .

Yeah, I thought that Force Rating was a stupid name for a talent, so I changed it in my games. Strong in the Force is Force Rating; sorry, I forgot to change it back in Oggy’s generator before printing the image!

Part of the theme is based on the talent One with the Universe showing that Astrogation has done mystical undertones, even though those don’t get explored much. So the talents here use it, as basically navigating the Astral Realm to find information. That’s why!

P-47Thunderbolt · February 4, 2021, 12:57am

Yeah, but I think it makes a bit more sense with Juyo (the only one I think is justified) than it does here because there doesn’t really seem to be a way to avoid it there, based on the nature of the talents and the narrative progression.

Yeah, that makes some sense. I’m just not sure the explanation would extend to those other talents based on how their fluff differs from One with the Universe. I’m not sure there’s a better talent, but I’ll give it some thought.

Absol197 · February 4, 2021, 1:59am

Updated version. I was toying around with a more thematic version of Slippery Minded, but eventually I decided that using the already-existing talent that did basically the same thing was probably better, and it expands the required skills you have to invest in to get the most out of the tree, which is always good.

Also, I connected the ends of the two branches, so you basically have two paths to go down, instead of two separate branches. Is that any better?

Lazer · February 4, 2021, 7:32am

I like the concept; it’s not like anything we see in the movies but it’s mystical enough that it could be some obscure Force tradition. I also think that Astrogation is a good fit for navigating the dreamscape, except I’d probably not want it linked to Intellect. If you didn’t already have so many unique talents I’d suggest adding one which links Astrogation with Presence for checks to navigate dreams.

Absol197 · February 4, 2021, 7:36am

That’s a good point, and one I hadn’t considered! But that seems a bit min-max-y to me. I do really like Presence as a characteristic for mystical stuff (Mystics are my favorite career by a very, VERY big margin ), but in this case I think it’s fine to remain linked to Intellect. I don’t really have anywhere I could slot it in.

Unless you can think of a spot? I guess I could come up with something to replace the rank in Well Rounded? But I like the idea of learning new skills from dreams, which is what Well Rounded is meant to represent, and then there’s the whole min-maxing thing…

But I can at least consider it! Thanks for the thoughts .

EDIT: And the number of unique talents isn’t extraordinarily high. It is high, but it’s only 6, the Nightsister, which this is vaguely based on, has 7. So there is technically space for one more without delving into new territory on that front.

Rimsen · February 4, 2021, 11:35am

A lot of talents are a bit too powerful here. There aren’t many fillers like other trees. From balance perspective, maybe I’d add a Force rating requirement akin to jedi specs, though I’d take out 1-2 talents and replace them with typical, less powerful talents for being more in line with the rest.

My takes:

I’d remove hidden signs and add in Galaxy Mapper (that’s the one removing setback from Astrogation?), swapping Well Rounded with the one in the 4th row. (Though I don’t really see the need for that, could be swapped out) as the outer route is basicly about the Astrogation-dreamwalking, the inner shouldn’t need for that. Also swap places of a Grit and a Galaxy Mapper in the 1st row.
Move the Resolves down to 4th (so Well Rounded goes to 3rd) and 5th row (Powerful ally’s place, which goes to D3).
I’d keep Dedication in the 5th row, possibly at the Force rating’s place, and move the FR to 4th row on the right. The unique talents can be cheaper but deeper in the tree.
True Dreamer at the end of the outer spiral (D2) and Calming Aura on the other end (C2), I’d drop Slippery Minded, don’t feel thematical.
Still have the C4 place, maybe Heightened Awareness?
It’s a lot of shuffling around, I hope it’s understandable :D Could draw the layout if I’m too confusing

Angelman · February 4, 2021, 2:10pm

Quick question since I’m an ignoramus: What’s a Dreamwalker?

Absol197 · February 4, 2021, 4:04pm

A “Dreamwalker” is someone who is really good at dreaming, and can effectively navigate and explore a different world while asleep. Lovecraft had a very extensive dreamland, and while he never used the term, a lot of the characters he wrote about were “dreamwalkers,” exploring this wide and consistent shared dreamscape.

It usually requires the existence of some kind of Realm of Dreams or Worldmind (in fact, there used to be a talent in this called Touch the Worldmind); in this case, I’m piggybacking off the Cosmic Force, saying that it can be treated as such as a way to get very in-depth visions, although they require interpretation.

Absol197 · February 4, 2021, 4:27pm

Thanks, Rimsen. It is a lot of shuffling, a map might be helpful?

The idea behind Slippery Minded was the other talent I was creating - it was called Waking Dreams, and basically it let you know when something you were perceiving wasn’t real (i.e. we’re “dreams”) and possibly shake it off. But… I realized it was getting to complicated and that Slippery Minded already existed and did the same thing - alert you to an altered mental state and shake it off. Hence why it’s there.

The only reason Dedication needs to be on the 5th row for most specializations is so that it costs a minimum of 75-100 xp to get it. But here, it still costs 100 xp, and it doesn’t get you anywhere towards the other major talents in the tree (especially if I remove the connection to the Force-related branch again). Can’t you let me have my silly fun, Rimsen ?

I’m curious what talents you think are too powerful. Powerful Ally lets you use a basic power you don’t have at the cost of a DP… which are all underwhelming. You can use it for a control upgrade you don’t already have… but then you can’t spend that DP to access the other color pips should you need them. Versatile, but not strong. Commune is outshined by a 25-credit comlink, which has the same if not better range, no check or xp expenditure, and doesn’t require everyone be asleep. Flows through All Things is decent, but requires a maneuver and a lot of Force rating to be comparable to something like Contingency Plan. The only “strong” talents are really Slippery Minded and One with the Universe, as far as I see… but maybe I’m missing something! It happens .

Angelman · February 4, 2021, 4:35pm

Does this exist in SW (Canon or EU) somewhere, or is this a brand new concept you’re introducing?

(I’m doing a Dream-heavy SW campaign myself atm – situated in the Kathol Sector where dreaming “gods” are believed to haunt the cultures, and where, according to KOTOR/SWTOR, the ancient Sith Empire conducted some dream/nigthmare experiments – so I’m interested in any SW dream lore stuff )

Angelman · February 4, 2021, 4:40pm

Hm… you introduce a Setback removal talent for dream interpretation, visioning, and filling in blanks when investigating. You should probably build some mechanics around dream interpretation and visioning also for the Hidden Signs to have any relevance?

Absol197 · February 4, 2021, 5:02pm

Ooh, sounds fun! I don’t think it exists in Star Wars anywhere, I’m mostly just making it up based on themes I like . It might be in Star Wars somewhere, but I don’t actually care whether it is or not. The main place this will be used is for an extensive, heavily-modified AU where what the Force can do is still highly unknown, so dreaming is an open question!

If you decide you want to use this tree for your campaign, feel free, and let me know how it goes!

Absol197 · February 4, 2021, 5:06pm

So, technically it already exists? In theory, you should be able to make a skill check with a relevant skill to do these things. However, in practice, for things like interpreting dreams and clues, most GMs will require the players to do it entirely out-of-character.

I’ve never fully liked this approach; we’re playing characters who are exceptionally more intelligent, clever, and determined than us players, we should be able to use the character’s mental faculties instead of having to rely on our own. But on the other hand, mysteries are more fun if you solve them yourself instead of having the GM point out the connections.

So Hidden Signs is intended to offer options for both play styles. If you want to roll checks, you get the Setback removal. If you want to rely on just puzzling it out yourself, you can get extra details if you have relevant Force powers, giving you more pieces to work with.

That’s the intent, at least. According to Rimsen, it didn’t work very well, so I may have to change it. I don’t want to go with Galaxy Mapper because that makes very little sense, but I may have to change to a different talent or change how Hidden Signs works.

P-47Thunderbolt · February 4, 2021, 6:33pm

I support keeping Hidden Signs.
I think you should key True Dreamer off of Lore, and Commune with Dreamers off of Discipline, leaving One with the Universe as Astrogation.
Then maybe add Intuitive Navigation somewhere.

Adding that one connection point an improvement, but not enough of one in my opinion.

I’m working on multiple projects right now, so I don’t have as much for giving feedback on this as I would like, but I’ll offer what advice I can.

Absol197 · February 4, 2021, 6:43pm

I appreciate your thoughts regardless, P-47!

As for changing the skills for Commune and Dreamer… do you have a reason other than not liking the theme of Astrogation? So many Force-related things already key off of Discipline and Lore already, and the point is to loop another skill that honestly gets very little use into the mystical family. Plus, the idea of both of those talents is about searching the dreamscape and finding what you’re looking for - you search for the other dreamers you’re communing with, and you search for the vision you need to help understand your current dilemma.

If you have a reason why I should change the skills, I’ll definitely consider it! But if the reason is just “these are the skills you normally use for Force-stuff,” then that’s the exact reason I’m not using them. They’re overplayed .

P-47Thunderbolt · February 4, 2021, 7:48pm

My main problem is that Astrogation is being divvied up in a weird way, so that it does two radically different things. One with the Universe walks that line well, but I don’t think it should be extended to the others.
Part of the reason for adding in Lore and Discipline is that they are given as career skills with the universal tree, but there’s nothing in the tree that actually relates to them, where there is for Astrogation and Vigilance. Astrogation in particular gets 3 talents. If you split it up, it urges the player to diversify and gives you a nice even spread of one active Discipline talent, one active Lore talent, and one active Astrogation talent.

Why specifically Discipline for Commune with Dreamers? You’ve got to be able to “lock on” to their signatures and push through the haze and distractions to make that connection. It’s more than just navigating, or opening yourself to the cosmos, you’ve got to walk the straight and narrow or you can be swept off the path and awaken without what you slept to find.

Why specifically Lore for True Dreamer? That one is a little bit more sketchy because it includes the future, but I’d call it knowing “when” to look for something. If you know history well, you’ll be more capable of predicting the future, so either you look into the past to find the future or you prognosticate an epoch in the future during which to search.