Hey all! Here’s a Force power I’m creating for my signature character, Kemna. I could use some feedback, mostly on the pricing of the abilities, but also on the abilities themselves. I’m worried that it (somehow!) might be too expensive for what it does!
Do note that this power is both A) from a character with a very unique perspective on the Force, so it’s a bit different, and 2) I don’t care about any concerns of canonicity or whether it seems “on brand” for Star Wars. Kemna is just different like that ! And if, for some strange reason, you want to try it out in a game and see how it goes, please let me know!
Also, EDIT! I managed to get an actual tree made up, so it doesn’t look so weird! Yay!
And here’s the Atonement Obligation, so it’s all in one place:
Atonement
The character has inflicted pain in their past, and the weight of the guilt is dragging them down. Now, they seek to balance the scales, and pay back to others what they’d taken previously. It is important to note that the value of this Obligation does not represent how much pain and sorrow the character has inflicted, but how much it weighs on them. A mercenary who has spent her life killing casually and taking what she wants has left a trail of grief and heartache behind her, and will need to make a concerted effort to pay off even 1 or 2 Obligation, while a priest who has devoted himself to helping the less fortunate may only need to renew his vow and redouble his efforts to pay off 10 or more Atonement. If both characters have a Atonement value of 30, however, they are feeling equally guilty about their past. The mercenary, perhaps, is seeing the faces of the hundreds she’s killed, while the priest is remembering that one family he was unable to save, and wracking his mind about “what if?”
I like the general gist of the power, how it can grant visions etc. as well on how it plays on fear. However I’m not a fan of granting Force rating and any powers to non-force sensitives, as it downplays the importance and specificity (is that a word? :) of the Force.
Here are some thougts that crossed my mind when reading the force powers. I don’t expect answers to these, nor are these ultimate truths. Just some food for thought. Take from here what you will:
The basic power uses term “living character” instead of “sentient.” Is it intentional that you can use this on animals also?
Can you use the power against unwilling target?
Can you decide not to grant all upgrades you know with the Force Power you grant? (Like “I’ll grant only the basic power but no upgrades”).
Can you grant Kemna’s Revelation also to the recipient (Control: Reveal)?
What happens if you use the power on a target that already has Force rating 1+? Nothing? Force Rating is increased? How Mastery: Show the Way affects characters who already have Force rating?
If Force rating is increased, can you use this power on a target (he gets extra Force Rating and this power), which he uses back to you, granting you extra Force rating. Rinse and repeat until you have sky-high force rating :p (Always prepare against power players :)
With this Force power you could can grant permanent Force rating for droids? Is that intentional?
Some powers (e.g. Ebb/Flow, Imbue, Conjure, Protect/Unleash, Heal/Harm) are powers that I would dramatically not prefer being granted to others at all. However Sense, Farsight, Foresee, Search etc. would make dramatic sense and keep within the “revelation” theme. This assuming the revelation is more of a premonition type thing, rather than revelations about the Force itself.
Should conflict and conflict talents affect a character that does not have force rating inherently somehow through this power? Can they blast off force powers with black pips with no consequences as they don’t have morality, but obligation or duty?
Control: Epiphany: This upgrade feels like a very storytelling stuff, not combat stuff at all, so the Stagger penalty is nothing. Intuitively I would think something like: if black pips were used to obtain the information, then the receiver would have really bad premonitions causing fear checks with diff equal to the number of black pips used whenever the subject of the information is present or it affects the story somehow. (“Really, really bad feeling about this”)
Should the character spend XP when they gain permanent Force rating, or is this free character advancement through a lucky check? Can this increase character’s Force Rating who already has 1+ Force Rating?
Mastery: Show the Way: I would consider changing the Vigilance check to Discipline as I feel it’s more of a Force rating learning skill.
Mastery: Show the Way is strange: the user or Kemna’s Revelation must spend XP to learn the upgrade in the first place and be able to grant permanent force rating to others. Then they must use the power and decide to use that upgrade on some target (presumably an ally, as the power is loaded with good stuff). Then, if the target attempts to gain the permanent Force Rating but fails, the user of Kemna’s Revelation may “punish” the target with obligation (with great cost, 2 Destiny points). It feels a bit contradicting that first you spend lot of resources to be able to grant permanent Force rating, then you given a choice to punish those who try to receive your gift but fail. Maybe there are some convoluted social and emotional situations when this could come in play, but in general I would never see anyone wanting to punish the target with obligation.
When granting Force rating to another person, it might make some sense that the character’s own force rating would decrease by the similar amount for the duration (lending your force).
Instead of granting force powers with all known upgrades, I would limit the Kemna’s Revelation to grant only the basic powers of the selected force power, and use Control Inspire and such to allow the user of Kemna’s Revelation to grant extra upgrades by specifically picking them (E.g. As basic power grant Farsight basic power to the target, and as Control: Inspire grant Farsight’s Control: Ongoing effect upgrade along with the basic power). Otherwise a character with all upgrades in one force power (Say Foresight) could allow any wretched farm boy to have Yoda like powers to Foresee.
Instead of granting +1 Force Rating with Show me the Way: I would rather allow already force sensitive characters to learn new force powers through this. Of course, if all Force powers are available to character by just spending XP and it would still require the XP to be spend, this upgrade would be useless. But if the availability of the Force powers are limited due to story reason, this would make sense as a force power teaching technique. But still rather expensive in terms of XP cost and all…
I think some dream / nightmare related stuff would fit well within this power’s theme. Like Epiphany could actually work through dreams, or you could cause nightmares (“Searing visions”) to unwilling targets.
Hey! First off, thank you for responding! I appreciate it! A lot of your questions have similar answers, so I’m going to group a bunch of them together (as best I can, I’m still getting the gist of this new forum down)…
This is exactly why the character develops this power . As background, Kemna believes that everyone is Force-sensitive, most people just let the gunk of daily life gum up their inner eye. This power is about revealing to the target that they can, in fact, use the Force, even if they never realized it. The Force is not special or unique, and Force-sensitives are not better or more special than anyone else.
The basic power uses term “living character” instead of “sentient.” Is it intentional that you can use this on animals also?
Can you use the power against unwilling target?
With this Force power you could can grant permanent Force rating for droids? Is that intentional?
Yes to all three! “Sentience” is a false separation that we smart animals imagine in order to make ourselves feel superior, there’s no difference as far as the Force is concerned! Also, the idea that droids aren’t “real people” and therefore cannot connect to the Force is also an illusion, although it is much harder to connect them to it because they aren’t traditionally “alive.” All according to Kemna, of course . Heck, it isn’t even specified that the character in question needs to be an animal! Kemna has befriended a Force-sensitive cactus, after all!
As for using it on an unwilling target, yes, but as usual an unwilling target may get to roll a resistance check, per the normal rules of affecting people with Force powers.
Can you decide not to grant all upgrades you know with the Force Power you grant? (Like “I’ll grant only the basic power but no upgrades”).
Can you grant Kemna’s Revelation also to the recipient (Control: Reveal)?
No to both. Basically, it’s all or nothing to keep with the theme of revelation and inspiration. You can’t truly inspire if you’re holding anything back. And Kemna’s Revelation has a Force rating prerequisite of 4 specifically so it can’t be granted here Reveal can only grant FR 1 powers, Inspire can only grant a single FR 2 or FR 3 power.
What happens if you use the power on a target that already has Force rating 1+? Nothing? Force Rating is increased? How Mastery: Show the Way affects characters who already have Force rating?
If Force rating is increased, can you use this power on a target (he gets extra Force Rating and this power), which he uses back to you, granting you extra Force rating. Rinse and repeat until you have sky-high force rating :p (Always prepare against power players :)
Should the character spend XP when they gain permanent Force rating, or is this free character advancement through a lucky check? Can this increase character’s Force Rating who already has 1+ Force Rating?
This power works just like the Force Rating 1 from the Force-Sensitive specializations and the Witchcraft talent - it grants a specific value (starting at 1, up to 4 with the Strength upgrade). An already sensitive character with lower Force rating can temporarily increase it, but it’s not a +1, it’s a 1. So there’s no risk of doubling back to give infinite Force rating . Technically there’s an abuse of wording in there that has to do with committing dice, but for clarity and simplicity I’m ignoring that for the moment. Just don’t be lame .
However, even if a sensitive character already has more Force rating than you can grant, it’s still (hopefully) useful to use on them, because you can temporarily share powers and talents.
The Light-side version of Show the Way has no effect on characters that already have a Force rating. It grants FR 1, so if you already have FR 1+, then it doesn’t do anything. For non-sensitive characters, there is no XP cost, so it’s “free” advancement. However, FR 1 by itself doesn’t do anything, so that character will need to spend XP on specializations and Force powers to get anything out of it.
Some powers (e.g. Ebb/Flow, Imbue, Conjure, Protect/Unleash, Heal/Harm) are powers that I would dramatically not prefer being granted to others at all. However Sense, Farsight, Foresee, Search etc. would make dramatic sense and keep within the “revelation” theme. This assuming the revelation is more of a premonition type thing, rather than revelations about the Force itself.
Mastery: Show the Way: I would consider changing the Vigilance check to Discipline as I feel it’s more of a Force rating learning skill.
When granting Force rating to another person, it might make some sense that the character’s own force rating would decrease by the similar amount for the duration (lending your force).
No actually, it is specifically revelations about the Force itself . I.e. that the target (and indeed, everyone!) was always Force-sensitive all along. So sharing any and all powers is intentional. It’s, “look you can do this stuff just like I can, you don’t need me to do it for you!” It’s very specifically not lending your Force ability, it’s showing the target that they actually had that ability all along, so reducing the user’s Force rating is counter to the intention (and would really undercut the point!)
The skill is specifically Vigilance not Discipline because it’s about understanding and, well, revelation, not about being strong-willed enough to “accept” Force-sensitivity. You need to be aware and open to accept the connection to the Force. Learn Discipline later to actually use the darn thing . Also, I just really like Vigilance as a skill, and think it needs more love (and Discipline needs less love).
Should conflict and conflict talents affect a character that does not have force rating inherently somehow through this power? Can they blast off force powers with black pips with no consequences as they don’t have morality, but obligation or duty?
They probably should, you’re absolutely right. Every GM has their own take on the Morality system. One difficulty here is that I use an entirely different one in my games that takes a more nuanced approach (and would naturally impose penalties), but I didn’t want to write up a dissertation on how to handle that. It’s temporary (mostly)! If needed, while the power itself is in effect, maybe the target’s abuses affect the user’s Morality? That makes sense!
Control: Epiphany: This upgrade feels like a very storytelling stuff, not combat stuff at all, so the Stagger penalty is nothing. Intuitively I would think something like: if black pips were used to obtain the information, then the receiver would have really bad premonitions causing fear checks with diff equal to the number of black pips used whenever the subject of the information is present or it affects the story somehow. (“Really, really bad feeling about this”)
It can be storytelling stuff, sure, but it’s still connected to the same power use. So if it is used in combat, but black pips are used, the target is staggered, incentivizing the user to limit themselves to white pips. I wanted a way to use black pips to stagger the target (they also cause a fear check and Disorient the target) with a high-end upgrade, and I wanted a power to grant an Epiphany, but I was running out of space so I combined them. Can you think of a better place to put the stagger effect?
Mastery: Show the Way is strange: the user or Kemna’s Revelation must spend XP to learn the upgrade in the first place and be able to grant permanent force rating to others. Then they must use the power and decide to use that upgrade on some target (presumably an ally, as the power is loaded with good stuff). Then, if the target attempts to gain the permanent Force Rating but fails, the user of Kemna’s Revelation may “punish” the target with obligation (with great cost, 2 Destiny points). It feels a bit contradicting that first you spend lot of resources to be able to grant permanent Force rating, then you given a choice to punish those who try to receive your gift but fail. Maybe there are some convoluted social and emotional situations when this could come in play, but in general I would never see anyone wanting to punish the target with obligation.
I think you may have missed something here. The target can only attempt to gain a permanent Force rating 1 if no Dark-side pips were used. This is the target’s choice. The user can only attempt to impose an Obligation if they used Dark-side pips in the power. This is the user’s choice. The two are mutually exclusive. The obligation portion is basically how a less charitable user can use this power as a weapon. It’s not a dangerous weapon, but it can be weaponized, to a degree. It is a FR 4 power, after all!
Instead of granting force powers with all known upgrades, I would limit the Kemna’s Revelation to grant only the basic powers of the selected force power, and use Control Inspire and such to allow the user of Kemna’s Revelation to grant extra upgrades by specifically picking them (E.g. As basic power grant Farsight basic power to the target, and as Control: Inspire grant Farsight’s Control: Ongoing effect upgrade along with the basic power). Otherwise a character with all upgrades in one force power (Say Foresight) could allow any wretched farm boy to have Yoda like powers to Foresee.
That’s the intention! That farm boy isn’t wretched, he’s just as capable as Yoda. He just doesn’t have the training… Also, I did consider pick-and-choose, but it gets too complicated (plus the earlier point about not holding anything back when your dropping truth-bombs).
Instead of granting +1 Force Rating with Show me the Way: I would rather allow already force sensitive characters to learn new force powers through this. Of course, if all Force powers are available to character by just spending XP and it would still require the XP to be spend, this upgrade would be useless. But if the availability of the Force powers are limited due to story reason, this would make sense as a force power teaching technique. But still rather expensive in terms of XP cost and all…
Yeah, the Light-side version of Show the Way doesn’t have much for already sensitive targets, but the point of that Mastery is the enlightenment of “non-sensitives,” so I think trying to shoehorn in something else would make it too… bloated, maybe? I dunno.
But the power as a whole is a great way to narratively explain teaching new powers! For GMs who want that sort of narrative continuity, I wouldn’t even think the Mastery is needed for that. “Oh, you can learn this new power because you’ve already experienced using it!”
I think some dream / nightmare related stuff would fit well within this power’s theme. Like Epiphany could actually work through dreams, or you could cause nightmares (“Searing visions”) to unwilling targets.
Dreams and Nightmares would be cool! Unfortunately, there’s little space for it remaining, and Jerserra’s Influence already covers most of the Force-induced nightmares. If you can think of a way to incorporate it, though, I’m all ears!
@Absol197 Thanks for the thorough reply. Clearly I interpreted the whole meaning of the power in a different way than you intended, and it is more tightly knit on Kemna’s personality and beliefs than what I expected. Most it makes more sense to me now
Considering the Mastery: Show the Way
Yes, I missed that the obligation option is only available when using dark pips (the image of the force tree is a bit lowres, so it was quite hard to read).
When using dark pips the user probably really wants to succeed in granting the temporary force to the target (user must spend destiny and strain to use black pips). That makes it even more disturbing that at the same time they would want to punish the subject with the Obligation by choice. Like “I really want you to enlighten, rise your conscious to the next level and show you the wonderful world of the force, but I also want to punish you with guilt, sorrow and grief.” I could see this more as a dark side force user’s way of working their subjects (show them the force, make them want it, pursue it and at the same time add fear, grief etc. dark side emotions to let the dark side take hold from the start. “The Kemna’s Shadow” ). That should probably be something that would generate conflict for the user.
Specificity is a wonderful word, and one of my favorities. It isn’t the easiest to use, at least not frequently, but it’s a good word.
I would argue that sentience is required to actually comprehend, understand, and foster a deeper connection with the Force. Animals know the sun is there, but they have no real understanding of it. Humans know what it is, how far away it is, its effects, its patterns, and we can even harness it for energy in a more than naturally biological way.
There’s also the matter that there are some Force-sensitive species, but as far as I am aware, there aren’t any Force-sensitive individuals of a species, unlike with sentients. That would suggest that the Force sees a degree of difference, though how individuals become Force-sensitive is an open question and fraught debate that I will have no part of. ^_^
Yeah, sorry it’s so small, I don’t know how to make it show up larger. By clicking on it a few times it gets easier to read…
The idea behind the Dark-pip Mastery is that the user is punishing the target with awareness. To grossly over-simplify, what if instead of killing him, you could force Hitler to experience all the pain and suffering he caused as if it was his own? That would be both horrific, and fair, a he destroyed millions of lives.
Should it have a Conflict cost? Probably! In fact, almost certainly! As I said, I personally use a different system that doesn’t quantify Conflict, so I’m not sure what would be a good value. What do you think, 4? 5? It’s causing pain, but not usually pointlessly, and it doesn’t kill, but depending on how it’s used, it could certainly be cruel…
Since the Dark Mastery is the user’s choice, I kinda see it as two different uses. If you really need to give your ally Force abilities for an encounter, you can spend the Dark pips for greater effect, knowing that your ally will have to deal with the fear check and maybe be staggered a bit, but you’ll purposefully not choose to activate the Mastery. Using the Dark Mastery, however, is entirely about punishing the target, forcibly enlightening their awareness not to uplift them, but to show them how horrible they’ve been (kinda like what the Ancient One did to Dr. Strange when they first met). Definitely Dark and worthy of some Conflict.
I would argue that sentience is required to actually comprehend, understand, and foster a deeper connection with the Force. Animals know the sun is there, but they have no real understanding of it. Humans know what it is, how far away it is, its effects, its patterns, and we can even harness it for energy in a more than naturally biological way.
There’s also the matter that there are some Force-sensitive species, but as far as I am aware, there aren’t any Force-sensitive individuals of a species, unlike with sentients. That would suggest that the Force sees a degree of difference, though how individuals become Force-sensitive is an open question and fraught debate that I will have no part of. ^_^
While you’re correct that sentience is required to understand the sun, what’s the phrase that’s always used for connecting to the Force?
Obi-Wan to Luke: “Let go your conscious self and act on instinct.”
Qui-Gon to Anakin: “Feel, don’t think. Trust your instincts.”
There are probably a few more that I’m forgetting, too. So… yeah, understanding the Force is not required to connect to and use it. It might be required to come up with a bunch of the more complex powers, but it’s explicitly not a requirement to be sensitive. In fact, I’d argue that animals are better at it, because they do a lot less thinking and a lot more feeling .
But also, this power is intended to fly in the face of established dogma about the Force, so if there is a pre-existing “sentience barrier,” the fact that it can ignore that is all the better.
This is why I said in a more than naturally biological way when talking about harnessing the power of the sun.
Certain species use the Force in certain ways naturally (several of them are outlined in Force and Destiny). But they don’t actually understand the Force, and they cannot do things like Force move etc. and can’t learn or be taught new Force powers.
A lot of my main argument comes down to the matter of soul. What separates humans from animals is their soul, which is hard to quantify or understand. This gives words like “instinct” “feeling” “thought” different context. Given that we’ve never seen (as far as I am aware, at any rate) individual members of a non-sentient species develop Force-sensitivity, only certain species that seem to have natural abilities connected to the Force, I would say that truly being Force-sensitive requires sentience, as it requires a soul, and the two are inextricably linked.
This all brings up an interesting question of why certain species exhibit particular Force abilities, and as to how the Force operates. I think the main problem with trying to come up with any sort of consistent, cohesive understanding of the Force from the existing material is that there have been so many writers with so many different takes that it’s somewhat contradictory when you really get into it. For some, it’s merely scientific cell structure. For others, it’s a mystical energy that’s completely non-sentient or intelligent, for others it’s practically a deity, and for others it’s some abstraction of the universe’s will.
This is kinda why clones and Mandos are my favorite parts of Star Wars. Less Force-y stuff.
My approach to the Force would be more-or-less that midichlorians are a genetic trait, with levels varying more-or-less randomly (meaning there’s no guiding force [haha] behind it, not that it isn’t scientific). Those with higher midichlorian counts are able to connect and use the power more effectively.
As for non-sentient creatures, they lack an ability to use or sense the Force, but through genetic engineering and Force manipulation, they can be granted abilities some might consider… unnatural.
<_< No wonder I don’t like Jedi.
None of this is to knock your idea, I’m just rambling about my take on how the Force operates in the universe and on how I think it should operate. I prefer the non-Force aspects of Star Wars for a multitude of reasons. :)
Turns out Kemna would be vehemently against your conceptualization of the Force, if only for the assertion that only sentient creatures have souls! Her best friend is a literal cactus, and she certainly has a soul!
But getting back to Revelation itself, the big concern I have is that the XP costs are right. It should be reasonably expensive, but the issue is that it doesn’t actually DO anything by itself. Every other power does something by itself - it can be the only Force ability you have and it does something that can be helpful.
But Revelation, until you buy the Show the Way mastery, at best can force a mild Fear check when you use Dark pips. To really get the most out of it, you have to spend extra XP on other Force powers to share, and even then, you’d probably get more use out of just using those powers yourself instead of spending your action to possibly fail to give that ability to an ally. Yeah, if you can get enough pips you can double-up on the best power for your circumstance, but that’s a bigger gamble than just using it twice yourself. You’re Force rating 4 at least!
I would suggest that perhaps Kemna is schizophrenic. xD
One of the key questions for any debate about who or what possesses a soul, is what a soul is. And this is certainly quite a fraught debate, as there is an extremely large quantity of contradictory theories, beliefs, and philosophies regarding what a soul is.
And this probably isn’t the best place for that. :D
Yeah, probably not . But at least in her story, her friend is indeed a separate person. She can communicate with any living thing, animal, plant, even bacterium, although they don’t usually have very much to talk about because of the extreme differences in their experiences. She’s talked to dozens of different plants before, but most are too… lazy isn’t the word. Unhurried? To actually want to be friends with a fast-paced animal like her. But the funny little cactus that pushed through its discomfort with her speed and strange movement in order to learn more about the world it lives in? Yeah, they can be friends .
But regardless, did you see my question about the XP costs? Any thoughts on that?
For the Control: Reveal, I think what you mean to say is “a Force rating prerequisite of no greater than 1” because if you just say 1+, then it means any Force power up to the ones with a prereq of 3. You should also revisit your wording for the Control: Inspire upgrade.
Other than that, I’m afraid I don’t have much in the way of opinions on this power.
EDIT 2: Oh, wait… I know where the plusses came from. That’s how Force rating prerequisites are described in the book. It’s listed as a prerequisite of “1+,” “2+,” or “3+,” not a prerequisite of “1,”, “2,” or “3.” Hmm… I think you’re still right. Even though the plusses are the way they’re described in the book, it makes it easier to understand what the power is saying if I remove them here. That way people don’t get confused.
Yup, you figured it out. However, I think you should do more than just remove the “+” because there’s a difference between a prerequisite of “1+” and a prerequisite of “1.” The former requires 1 or more, the latter requires that it be one. So looking at this from a matter of “legalese” if you will, it would need to say something like “a Force rating prerequisite of no greater than 1” or “no greater than 2” etc.
The other matter of wording is the use of the word “you.” That’s good for explaining the power, but it isn’t the proper way to write the power. If you’ll look at the actual powers, they all say “the character” or “the active character” or “the user.”
Typo in the base power, says “point point of their Willpower” instead of “per point of their Willpower.”
D’oh! I’ll fix that typo, thanks. And that’s a good point, I’ll fix it again…
Here’s the updated version. Better? (I also put the fear check effects of those upgrades on a separate line, to help them not get lost in the shuffle.)
EDIT: Oh, duh. The “you” thing. I’ll be honest, I KNOW that it’s not supposed to say “you,” but I wrote so much stuff for D&D and Pathfinder over the years that those habits creep in whenever I’m writing RPG material. It’s a really hard habit to break. I’ll see about fixing that, too…
Should I reduce the number of Threat needed for the Disorient effect down to 2? I re-read Fear checks already, and Failure by itself is effectively Disorient, except it doesn’t call it that.
Three Threat is Staggered for 1 round… is an extra Setback for the encounter the same as staggered for a round? Keeping in mind this is a FR 4+ power, and the target could get both a resistance check and the Fear check to resist? Or should it be two Threat, to make it more easily accessible?
I’d reduce the Threat requirement for Disorient to 2. Makes it similar to the actual Disorient weapon quality, which requires 2 Advantage to activate. As for duration, I think making it last until the end of the encounter/effect makes sense.
Any thoughts on the cost? The total is 215, the same as Protect/Unleash, but as I mentioned, the cost to do anything with this power is essentially doubled, because you also have to purchase the other Force powers to gift, and the action to use Revelation is as action where you could have been using the gifted power yourself, so…
I dunno. The cost is also balancing the narrative strength of being able to give the target the Force, even temporarily, but that narrative potential is also quite likely to draw unwanted attention in most Star Wars settings. I feel like we could maybe shave some points off somewhere, but I’m not sure where…
! And if, for some strange reason, you want to try it out in a game and see how it goes, please let me know!
. Heck, it isn’t even specified that the character in question needs to be an animal! Kemna has befriended a Force-sensitive cactus, after all!