Obi-Wan Kenobi (Disney+ spoilers)

General Discussion
#61

The 5th episode.

Amazing piece of work.

They do not get entrenched in pointless reiterations and explications of past events from previous episodes or detailed meanderings of little value. They move the story forward. Focusing on what matters for the characters and the plot(s), without getting mired into irrelevant minutiae that a viewer of average intelligence can pick up on and piece together instinctively.

The back and forth between the training duel on Coruscant and the attack on the way station for people escaping Imperial entanglements, many possibly due to Force-sensitivity (but not all), is very effective at showing the strengths and weaknesses of Vader and Kenobi - and their knowledge of each others’ strengths and weaknesses.

Tala’s death was unfortunate, but “earned” and sufficiently impactful - even if it would’ve been cool if she got her own spin-off, together with an ensemble of other character rescuing and helping Jedi on the run.

Reva’s knowledge about Anakin/Vader is clarified, which is really cool. I’ll admit that the memory visions thingies could lead us to believe she was standing straight in front of Vader, but that is clearly not what happened. It’s memory. Memory is by all accounts and research unreliable in real life (look up some research on unreliability of using witnesses in courts), and the memory is shown not unlike Grogu’s memory from Order 66. Which also led people to think he was hiding in plain sight, straight in front of a bunch of Clone Troopers… and obviously, that doesn’t make very much sense. So the problem is not the writing, directing, or visuals, it’s the jumping-to-conclusion-kind-of-interpretation that doesn’t adequately consider alternate interpretations, and doesn’t check for the misguidance of cognitive biases.

Reva appears as a tragic, but well-written character, she has a clear motivation, but is also very conflicted, which seems to be her downfall. Her desire for revenge on Vader is full of fear - knowing who and what he is, and what he can do - and using Kenobi to make Vader vulnerable while clever, is clearly not going to work. Vader isn’t thrown that easily. Also, I believe Kenobi somehow used the Force on Reva, touching the door that way, but I may be reading too much into that. Either way, I think she’s going to Tatooine now, that’s going to be an exciting end to things. She’s definitely a fledgling villain, that won’t likely survive.

I really like this episode.

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#62

GM: “You must go on a quest to earn your kyber crystal if you want a lightsaber.”

Player: “… There’s a whole box of free lighsabers on Jabiim, though.”

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#63

But…he did “say something like that.” It was how he sold her on (to borrow from Hamilton) not throwing away her shot.

Just snipping there, rather than copying the entire response.

Thank you for the clarification. Your wording just didn’t convey that to me. It happens.

But, in turn, your own interpretation of what I was saying was inaccurate.

You didn’t suggest they should “paint the show green.” In the space of a few sentences, you lambasted them for “painting it yellow” when it should be “blue,” then turned around and complained about them instead “painting it blue.” That is, when they spelled things out for the audience, you complained that they weren’t giving the audience credit for intelligence, yet when they didn’t have Reva soliloquize about the very subject that was clear and the very method Obi-Wan used to steer her into finally taking action against Vader, seem to feel that it should have been spelled out for the audience. It seems a contradiction to me. Clearly, you don’t see it that way.

And, here’s the third time that I agree that the shorthand could be problematic.

Thank you for continuing to harp on it. It’s very productive to do so, when I agreed with the clumsiness of its use from the outset.

Given the context, I presumed that you got that I was speaking in a generality, not necessarily remarking on your own use of the term…that “plot hole” has come to be widely (mis)used to mean, “Something (the person using the term) didn’t like,” as opposed to an oversight of an element that would genuinely impact the story. Apparently, I was too presumptuous on that count.

Honestly can’t say whether I hope so, hope not, or something in between. IF it happens, it would all depend on the execution. There are several things that could lead it to play out that way while reconciling apparent inconsistencies in the films. (“Your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough,” vs a literal pick-up shot of Kenobi grabbing the saber on Mustafar because he forgot that scene in the original. “Obi-Wan once thought as you did,” vs no real indication that he saw any hope for redemption after Anakin’s turn to Vader, as two examples.) The fleeting moment of possible redemption being Vader’s willingness to protect Luke, then leave him behind so he doesn’t suffer the same fate as his father (which, of course, he’d rethink in later years). Something like, when all is done, after seeing Obi-Wan has his old saber, “Keep him safe. Keep him away from all of this. When he’s old enough, give him my lightsaber and tell him about me. But don’t tell him about…this. Tell him about Anakin. Now, go…before I change my mind and strike you down where you stand.”

Not that I expect that sort of specific scenario to play out, but I don’t find it unthinkable to interpret the latest episode’s ending was setting up a, “the enemy of my enemy is my ally” dynamic for the finale.

#64

“Green” in this case is the balance between the two. To make that analogy more accurately, I said that they painted it “too yellow” and then painted it “too blue.”

You mentioned it, I agreed with it and explained my paradigm. I’m not sure why that warranted a sarcastic response?
(Reading back through, I realize I’d addressed almost exactly the same statement before. I had simply forgotten. My memory is not what it used to be and I apologize for the mistake.)

No, I understood, I was just responding to your general statement. In large part because it has not been my experience that it has been widely misused in that way, at least not intentionally (as I described).

#65

And here’s where we get into subjectivity.

“Too yellow” and “too blue” are matters of personal preference. But the way it was put forth was that they could do no right for you. Your points of contention weren’t expressed as matters of degree, but as (if I may present as it came across to me):

“Geez! We’re not idiots. We know he has his lightsaber, you don’t need to spell this stuff out for us!”

Followed by,

“Geez! Why didn’t Reva stop in the middle of everything for a monologue about becoming the very thing she hates? Why don’t you spell this out for the audience?”

The “I haven’t used it that way” portion is what threw me. If you’ve truly not seen that sort of misapplication, then I’m genuinely envious of the routes your online travels take. From YouTube to clickbait articles to general online discourse, so many lump any and all general complaints they have (which, when analyzed, end up under the “I just didn’t like this” umbrella) are branded as “plot holes.” It’s become an overused phrase that’s often used incorrectly as described above. While it began being misused by those who simply refused to admit that whatever pop culture they were (too?) invested in isn’t custom made to their personal specifications, but made for a wider audience, it’s begun making its way into general conversations. At the rate it’s going, it has a very realistic chance of being the next “literally,” where the term was misused (in place of “figuratively”) so widely that the written dictionary definition expanded to include the misuse. So now, as an episode of The Newsroom pointed out, we literally no longer have a word that just means “literally.”

#66

I don’t know for sure what you’re referring to, but I watched both scenes again and saw nothing of the sort. Closest he comes is saying “There are families back there… are you going to let him do it again?”

That is shown as swaying her.

If the fate of families were to have any sway, wouldn’t it have had sway over her when she hunted and killed Force sensitive children and their families? Or when she openly threatened such actions in spite of the other Inquisitors balking and saying “You’re going a little bit far, don’t you think?”

There’s no acknowledgement of anything she’s done. In fact, there’s more contraindication, in the sense that it implies she cares about preventing Vader from killing the innocent families.

The closest they come was her line of “You have no idea what I’ve done alone,” but it was in the context of achievement/her ability to fight Vader, not “You have no idea what I’ve done, just to get the shot to take him out” or whatever.

To me, watching those scenes again, I see so many missed opportunities that could have made them a lot better.

Yes, exactly.

No, not really. I did use the word “speech” (see 3, 5) but not in the sense of soliloquy or monologue. Those were your words, even after I’d rejected them. My point was more broadly not the specific lack of a conversation regarding the void staring back, but the lack of any kind of acknowledgement or even implied acknowledgement. It looks to me like the writers simply ignored that aspect.

That was not how I put it forward. If you took it that way, that’s not on me. I’m being quite blunt, but so are you.

In the realm of “telling” vs. “showing” there is a sweet spot. That sweet spot (for the metaphor, “green”) shifts back and forth between the two extremes depending on the situation. While it cannot be mathematically determined, we know it’s there, and we can know when it’s off. To borrow an example I gave earlier, “Spot”-level prose in an epic fantasy aimed at adults would be “wrong,” just as epic-fantasy-level prose in a book aimed at small children would be “wrong.”

I think that in the case of Reva, they don’t show or tell or even imply anything. I don’t think it’s addressed in the show. I think that your view is drawn from your own mind and projected onto the story, which is not wrong! Our imaginations help us bring stories to life. That’s how come sometimes my impressions of stories from reading Wookieepedia articles are far higher than is warranted by the actual stories.

Like I said, I haven’t really encountered that misuse and so can’t comment on what you are positing. I have seen it used sometimes overly broadly or mistakenly, where something that isn’t understood or is misunderstood is labeled as a plot hole, but I’m generally more prone to apply such incorrect usage to simple incorrectness rather than to “misuse” of the term. To clarify, someone can use the term in its intended meaning and simply be wrong about what they are applying it to.

From our conversations, it makes me suspicious that you may be too quick to dismiss what other people see as a plot hole, thus then believing that the word is being misused. I’m not applying intent or motive, just observing. You know what you’ve seen better than I have, and I’m not telling you to change your opinion of it.

#67

Nope…thought better of what I’d posted. Nothing to see here.

#68

While we wait for the inevitable, I’ll just say I really liked this episode too.

Lots of callbacks to films and episodes, and Reva’s survival surprised (somewhat), but it makes sense if they are secretly considering a second series - perhaps about the Path? Or Kenobi having to help out Reva as she’s being hunted by inquisitors or Maul, or whatever (perhaps teaming up with Ahsoka? I doubt that)… but Reva did, sort of, start to redeem herself, which I liked. Didn’t feel very earned, but it is more than sufficient considering the metaphysical aspects of Star Wars.

The final duel was cool and epic. Nice uses of Force powers and lightsabering. However it felt a bit odd that Kenobi just left like that, but they are constrained by plot … however, some other resolution could have worked too - however, “there is still good in him”, and “Obi-Wan once thought as you did”, combined with Kenobi’s line “then my friend is dead” (or whatever he said), concluding with “Bye, Darth” - which felt fitting (dismissive and sad). It felt kind of strange that Vader blamed himself “killing” Anakin (contradicting himself from the earlier episode), but it merges well with Palpsy boi’s appearance, and hints toward the redemption in RotJ. Palpsy boi was sufficiently Palpsy. I wonder about the Grand Inquisitor speaking like that to Vader, and what scheming machinations are going on behind the scene. I like it.

Jinn’s appearance was expected, and confirms my suspicion of the “letting go” thing. Which, I guess, was part of Reva’s start on the path to redemption, not being able to let herself be consumed, and starting to let go. She has a long way to go, but I like that they ended with her starting down that path. Anyway, Jinn. It was just so nice to see him.

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#69

Hey, now you have made me curious. :sweat_smile:

#70

I’m going to give my opinion whether positive or negative regardless whether it’s “welcome” or not, and I’m always happy to discuss both my opinion and the show whether you agree or not. I was not the one who make this an adversarial thread; all I did was defend my opinion when I was insulted for holding it. And until I’m convinced my opinion is wrong, I’m going to stick by it.

As for my eagerly-anticipated opinion on the episode:
This episode was much better than the others, although it still had its share of issues. Most of them, however, are far broader in nature and can be blamed on the direction of the series as a whole rather than on this episode in particular, or else are simply continuations of trends rather than unique problems.

What it got right:
The fight between Obi-Wan and Vader, although it had issues, was fun to watch.
Darth Vader saying he killed Anakin actually does a very good job of backing up Obi-Wan’s “Darth Vader killed your father” quote.
The ending with Palpatine helps smooth over some of my concerns regarding why Vader would stop pursuing Obi-Wan when he knows he’s alive.
Haja, Roken, Owen, and Beru were excellent, and the scene where Obi-Wan has a reunion with Leia was quite well done.
The scene at the end with Kenobi, Owen, and Luke was quite layered and I enjoyed it, but Kenobi had failed Luke. I was surprised Owen didn’t mention it.

I may also be forgetting some things, I’m suffering some mechanical issues today and not holding on to information well as a result.

Now for what I didn’t like:
Timing. We’re led to believe that the chase sequence is going on simultaneously with the events on Tatooine, but that would seem to indicate that an ISD was pursuing a civilian freighter for probably at least a couple hours and didn’t even manage to beat its shields? Didn’t help that the gunners had stormtrooper aim (yes, it was a small, mobile target, I can give them a break on that count) (also honorable mention for ten minute hyperspace trip to Tatooine and arrival at the Lars’ homestead).
My main issue with it, however, is that TIE fighters no longer exist. I cut them some slack in episode 4(?) where they didn’t chase them with TIEs from the Inquisitors’ fortress, but here it was not something I can easily overlook.

I understand why they didn’t use TIEs (would’ve made for a short chase), but it means I could no longer suspend my disbelief. That’s the sort of situation where as a writer you should try to find some other way to write the scene. I’m of the opinion that a story should flow naturally, and the way a scene unfolds is dictated by the author’s ends, but the scene’s means. The exclusion of TIEs made this feel quite forced.

Enough about TIEs. The lightsaber duel was mostly okay, I didn’t like Kenobi Reying the rocks and the physics of throwing them at Vader was a bit off (it gets to the point of Superman, basically, while Owen actually realistically gets hurt falling off the catwalk thing), but the duel was, internally, sound. I say internally though because lightsabers lately have felt more like baseball bats than energy swords. The movements are far less crisp than they used to be, and when Kenobi hits the rock, or Vader, it reacts like striking with a baseball bat (“the rock explodes”) rather than what I would expect from a lightsaber.

As far as the episode-specific bits, I think that’s about it. Like I said, this one was much better.

More generally however, here’s my retrospective on the series:
Reva: The first four episodes were terrible, the last two got much better and made her interesting (and avoided some of the concerns I had starting out), but were hamstrung by certain… omissions. Reva surviving, I don’t like, but I knew it was going to happen and it wasn’t exactly new to her. My issues come with the redemption arc. While there was no grappling in the previous episode, and certainly no change of heart at the beginning of this one, they get very close in the final conversation with Obi-Wan and I got very excited… then they ruined it. They act like Reva’s story began at the temple and then skipped to the start of this series. I find it incredibly hard to believe that she didn’t do what all the other Inquisitors did. The implication is that she only “almost became Vader” because of trying to kill Luke, and that she didn’t because she didn’t follow through, and Kenobi absolves her of this. It reminds me of WandaVision, where at the end they act as if Wanda made a sacrifice by releasing the people she was imprisoning when she imprisoned them in the first place! It rings to me of a screwed up moral compass among Hollywood writers/showrunners, but we knew that already, didn’t we? xD

Vader: Never finishing the job. Reva twice, Obi-Wan once. Really all I have to say, it just felt out of character for him.

Inquisitors: Costume design and actor choice, mostly. Fifth Brother was a huge hulking guy, and they cast a short, fifty-year-old Asian. I understand it might be hard to get a guy who’s seven feet tall, but you could’ve at least made an effort, right?

Obi-Wan: It was… okay. Some inconsistency with how much of the Force he could use (can’t lift coin/holds back water), but all in all I’d say “meh.” Perhaps I’m giving it short-shrift, but there was so much bad in the show that it overwhelms the good, at least for me.

Bail: He did some very stupid things in this show (like the hologram), and I have to wonder why he didn’t send his own people rather than Obi-Wan? Reva’s plan was quite contrived, and shouldn’t have worked.

Continuity: Leia having already met Obi-Wan makes her behavior in A New Hope a bit odd (although it does help explain why she might go to Tatooine in the first place, but I digress), and Vader and Kenobi’s meetings make the “when I left you I was but the learner” line a bit odd. But I wouldn’t say this series had too many glaring external plot-related continuity issues, even if it does make some things a bit more contrived.

Finally, expectations: I thought I was being sold Obi-Wan on Tatooine watching over Luke and trying to commune with Qui-Gon. What I wanted, definitely not what I got. Oh well. I’m not bitter or anything, just a bit disappointed and confused, not sure how much of that was a legitimate perception versus me being uninformed and making assumptions.
Speaking of watching over Luke, he failed his one job! The one time Luke needs him in the entire series, he isn’t there.

Footnote: That’s a very durable holster to not have been incinerated.

#71

You feel a need to tell us? As if we don’t already know it :smiley: :wink:

You (like most of us) seem to confuse “discussion” with “debate” some of the time. Discussions about taste and creative cultural products rarely benefit from either/or categories (which is more in the domain of debates - where it is commonly about “winning” and “convincing”, as opposed to “understanding” and “learning” - that’s a simplistic distinction, but it is sufficient for this place). It’s usually much more civil and constructive to use scales or degrees. Granted, that is more complicated - as my own posts are almost as good examples of as yours. :smiley: :wink: And sure, if you take offence at this (too), than I apologise beforehand, as it is not my intent to insult you (despite what you may believe). There’s no need to point out how wrong you think I am, because as you, I stick to my opinions until convinced otherwise. And the two of us should really not interact too much because of our fundamental differences in communicative approach, and it’s bad for everyone else (and probably us).

Yes! Indeed!

This links up well with the Grand Inquisitor’s line about the insurgents being more important than a single Jedi. I really liked this too - from many scenes in the show “Only Kenobi matters!” to “Kenobi is irrelevant” (or whatever he said).

I … I mean, you’re right. But I felt it was … unnecessary, and felt a bit forced (but knew it would happen because of Lola). But it was a very good scene I feel.

I thought about this as I watched it, but I didn’t think that was what they wanted us to believe, but they wanted us to feel it that way. Granted, timeywimey stuff and travel in Star Wars has been an issue in every iteration after the OT I feel. The ST more so than the PT. But in this instance, knowing what happened last episode, we’re following Kenobi in the “now” and Reva in the “future” - so it makes sense that they link up the way they did. I get your gripe with this, but I feel this is just a way to edit a better flow into the visual storytelling. It can seem to trick us, but I think it adequately adds tension to the viewing experience.

I did not have that expectation, but I did want (more of) the commune with Qui-Gon thing, but that wouldn’t - necessarily - have made for great storytelling. It would be more suitable in a novel or comic book I feel. All in all, I think this show did a good job, came up with a good reason for Kenobi having to go off-world (even if the plan was a bit odd, or contrived as you say).

Indeed. I want one of those. :sweat_smile:

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#72

I agree. I have an admittedly competitive personality, and follow the principle of iron sharpening iron. Iron sharpens iron by striking together, through friction. Properly aligned, it strengthens and is beneficial to both parties. Improperly so, it damages both. An excellent Star Wars metaphor for this is Obi-Wan and Anakin’s sparring matches. They are competing towards the end of mutual improvement. Later, they are competing towards the end of the other’s destruction.

The line between argument and contradictory discussion (“iron sharpening iron”) is hard to quantify, but I think we got off on the wrong foot and it set the tone for the rest of our “discussions” here (regardless whose fault that may be, as it is usually never that of a single person).

I agree. I did question why it needed to happen (Lola was the answer, and now that I think of it is actually an excellent example of plant-payoff, as the plant made sense and was completely unobtrusive), but thought it was excellent for what it was.

There was a scene where Reva does something specific, and then it jumps to Kenobi having a realization, as if the two were simultaneous. Like Kenobi having the sense of Alderaan blowing up. Action/reaction.

Regardless of practicality, I agree that the flow is fine, and as mentioned when I’ve complained about the “timey-wimey” stuff before, I understand why. It just bothers me, and I wish that instead of “rules” being “bent” to suit the story, the story was written within the “rules.”

Perhaps. I enjoy the psychological stuff, and the intense character focus enabled by that, which is part of why I enjoyed Moon Knight so much (I watched it on a whim, and my whim was rewarded).

I’ve always enjoyed psychological/philosophical themes in stories.

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#73

All I will say is that I loved it. Every bit of it. It was fun to watch.

But I hope it is a “one and done” scenario. We don’t need a second season. Ewan and Hayden got to play in the universe again and we got to see an adventure of Obi-Wan’s time during those years in exile.

I do hope we get to see Reva again. One fun idea might be to have a Reva and Quinlan Vos team up. I do have an idea of a way to use her in my campaign I run at home on Friday nights, but maybe I won’t.

Can’t wait for Andor!

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#74

You and me both! Cannot wait for some rebel intrigue.

Loved the episode though. The scene between unmasked Vader and Kenobi was exceptional.

And likewise loved the capstone of “You wanna meet him?” + Qui-gon. Was so chuffed to see him finally. Those 10 seconds were all I needed.

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#75

So, I sort of agree, at least that we don’t “need” a second season. However, I wouldn’t be too surprised if we got a second season, or a “sequel” series with some of the same characters, like Reva and Roken, perhaps with Quinlan, that would be cool.

Oh yeah, Andor looks really cool.

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#76

I now watch all Disney+ SW stuff as an alternate universe… that way I am not p***** off with plot/canon/lore holes. I really got sucked in with Mando and forgave the bleeping acquisition beacon and I let out a little bit of wee with the Obi/Anni sparring flashback and when Vader pulled the ship back down tbh… I stopped BoBF after the Mando focus episode.

I’ve just started watching SW:Rebels for the sheer h*** of it :D

#77
  • Liked “I killed Anakin” helping what Obi-wan would later say.
  • Force rock-tossing and blasting was too powerful for what we’ve seen before and after with these two (at least considering live action only).
  • “Hello there!” made me smile.
  • Great seeing Qui Gon.
  • Lightsabers apparently need CR reduced and Vicious removed.
  • ISD being unable to quickly take out a passenger liner due to plot was upsetting. You could argue Vader wanted it only disabled so he could face Obi-wan, but why not quickly kill it when Obi-wan jumped ship or at least send TIEs after it?
  • Overall I liked the series, but quality of writing was subpar. Too many small but glaring issues throughout that could have easily been corrected. In the end, the entire series only had a very small affect on the Star Wars universe - Touched on force ghosts, Leia growing up, Inquisitors live action, and “I killed Annakin”. We received some slight plot holes regarding Episode IV dialogue for some minor details of things we already know about.
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#78

I can sympathise, that has been my perspective since I started reading the novels and comics back in the 1990s. So many of the novels were horrible pieces of literature, but brought nice things to the storyverse that I liked, and the comics were generally better (at least the Dark Horse stories), and introduced several things I have used in my own games.

Kenobi has expanded on things I have used in my games, and introduced more details and things that are going to improve my campaign, once I pick it up again some time this autumn.

#79

I hope Old Ben can sleep well at night knowing that he let Darth Vader go on to become a terrorizing murderous fascist for another decade, when he could have stopped him on Smoky Rock Planet.

Because I sure didn’t sleep great on that thought.

What a garbage TV show that only made me mad.

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#80

Short version: I took the bait. Then spit it out. ;)